THE CLUBHOUSE

Rusty Nail = Qualified Judge.

Great Human Being & Gentleman.

Rusty Nail wrote:I can ONLY speak for me. I was a judge at the show. I don't know all the reasons why the AFM guys were left out but the WF staff thought it was the best thing to do so it happened. I can't say I fully agree with it BUT I don't think it was to "lower the bar" because their was a lot of good work there this year. To say that would be to discredit the participates NOT just the judges. I support the WF crew because I think it was only intended for the best. You can take last year...there was a HUGE ruckus about the awards...A LOT of bitching and complaining about the lack of GOLDS and on and on.

My point exactly!! There was ruckus about the awards so they remove the judges they think are responsible? This is "lowering the bar" in my book. Rusty you are more than qualified to judge as is Mark Van Tine and many other "non" AFM judges. My statement wasn't about discrediting entrants. My statements were about keeping the bar set at a level that demands excellence that has ALWAYS been a part of the WF contest. Again because there are a few unhappy entrants that possibly misjudge their level of expertise and think they should get better awards, the rules get changed? Again I will say IF this is what happened I disagree with it. The WF model contest has always been about modeling excellence! I don't want to start seeing mediocre kits get awards they don't deserve. As always it's their show and they can do what they want. If they think it's for the better then so be it I guess. If I may quote the great coach Vince Lombardi....."Perfection is not attainable, but if we chase perfection we can catch excellence."

Thanks Robb! I consider you a friend among friends brother.

Scott you do make valyid points my friend.

John...us Maiden fans knows what's what

Rusty Nail wrote:Thanks Robb! I consider you a friend among friends brother.

Scott you do make valyid points my friend.

John...us Maiden fans knows what's what

I've judged the contest a few times now (the last time with Rusty back in 2013 (I missed WF in 2014)) but not this year - the WF show runners made a decision to do something different and I think the results speak for themselves. There were some OUTSTANDING models entered and overall perhaps one of the highest quality years I've seen, going back to 1999 (especially considering there were 573 entries), and I've seen very little post-show griping about who got what. I don't think its necessary for everyone who judged to stand up and prove their qualifications - Rusty chose to do so and that's his prerogative, but let's not turn this into a witch hunt. Judging is hard work and is taken very seriously by all involved. If you feel so strongly about certain people not judging then perhaps consider not entering your kits. I don't see who would benefit from that but this is THEIR show (The WF show runners) and they need to run it as they see fit.

RossAWaddell wrote:I've judged the contest a few times now (the last time with Rusty back in 2013 (I missed WF in 2014)) but not this year - the WF show runners made a decision to do something different and I think the results speak for themselves. There were some OUTSTANDING models entered and overall perhaps one of the highest quality years I've seen, going back to 1999 (especially considering there were 573 entries), and I've seen very little post-show griping about who got what. I don't think its necessary for everyone who judged to stand up and prove their qualifications - Rusty chose to do so and that's his prerogative, but let's not turn this into a witch hunt. Judging is hard work and is taken very seriously by all involved. If you feel so strongly about certain people not judging then perhaps consider not entering your kits. I don't see who would benefit from that but this is THEIR show (The WF show runners) and they need to run it as they see fit.

I want to be clear about something. I never asked for anyone's qualifications. I have also stated that it's "THEIR" show and they can do what they want (and as a show it is a GREAT show EVERY year IMHO). However as a 21 year veteran of the show I always thought that the WF model contest was the best of the best. It was an open judging system and I never saw any issue with it. (if it isn't broke....don't fix it) Now there has been speculation that because some people complained about the judging that there was a major overhaul. I have also said that IF.........I'll say it one more time..........IF that is the case then I disagree with the decision (which I have the right to do). A lot of the AFM judges I've known since the early days in the hobby. Some of them were naturally gifted and got gold medals early on. Others worked for years to achieve that prestigious award from the premier model kit contest in the country for figures. Once they won that award most if not all of them stopped entering and many were asked to write for AFM, Kitbuilders, Modeler's Resource, etc. They were then asked by the WF staff to judge which many of them felt was an honor. Some of them didn't write for any publications but were talented artists as well. They achieved excellence and were rewarded for their hard work. Most of these guys remembered how hard they had to work and how much better they had to get to achieve a gold award at WF. So my problem now is that it seems to me that.......IF the griping led to this change then it "cheapens" the contest in my opinion. Ross you stated that you haven't seen any post show griping......of course you haven't...........according to the numbers 81% of the entrants received awards!! To me this proves my point!! Ross I also have to quote you one more time. You said "If you feel so strongly about certain people not judging then perhaps consider not entering your kits." Many people here know me and give me a lot of crap (in fun) about never entering a kit. I will say this.......IF I did enter a kit at this point and the old system of judging was gone I don't think it would mean as much to me as it once would have. I would rather have the best (and I'm not trying to slight anyone that judged this year, however I know the AFM guys were in fact some of the best out there) judge me and force me to get better or know that I earned anything I received for the kit. Again...........just MY opinion. Not a witch hunt. I want to be clear about a few other things. I am personal friends with a lot of the guys involved in the contest and WF in general. They all work their butts off to bring us a fantastic weekend and they always have. My opinion here is not meant as a slight to anyone or the show in general. It is just my opinion of an issue that may have happened for the reasons I think and may not have. Either way I don't agree with the decision for the reasons I have listed. Bottom line is that WF is their show and they can run it how they see fit. I'm not unhappy with the show at all. I'm not unhappy with the contest other than saying I HOPE we didn't do this to make the contest easier to win awards. That would be an injustice to those that won and those who have worked their tails off to achieve a certain level only to find out that that level has been lowered.

SJ

Scott, I understand your concerns, but I have a different take on this.

First of all, I know Rusty and one of the vehicle judges pretty well (sorry, it's not my place to name him). I can tell you that neither of these guys are "lower the bar" kind of guys, and they would never have agreed to judge if that's what the WF organizers wanted to do.

There is certainly no doubting that the AFM guys know their stuff, and no one would ever dispute that. I spent a little time in the AFM suite, and they all seemed like great guys.

I certainly don't have a clue why the changes were made, and probably never will. I can understand how the change in judging and the high percentage of awards can make you feel like the standard is lower, IF those are the only points you are considering.

But, as many people have posted, there were a lot more high quality pieces on the tables this year than usual. I felt that, after all the complaining last year, people really brought their "A" game this year. I'll tell you that I was highly motivated to bring my absolute best work.

Forget about the changes, forget about the complaining from last year. This show should be about the models on the table. Almost everyone I have talked to felt the judging (for the whole show, not just their own models) was spot on, but if you, yourself, looked closely at the models and strongly feel they didn't deserve any of the awards they received, then yeah, raise hell about it. However, if we start complaining about how many awards were given, regardless of the quality of work, then it seems like we taking the models out of being the main focus of the model contest.

Brent wrote:Scott, I understand your concerns, but I have a different take on this.

First of all, I know Rusty and one of the vehicle judges pretty well (sorry, it's not my place to name him). I can tell you that neither of these guys are "lower the bar" kind of guys, and they would never have agreed to judge if that's what the WF organizers wanted to do.

There is certainly no doubting that the AFM guys know their stuff, and no one would ever dispute that. I spent a little time in the AFM suite, and they all seemed like great guys.

I certainly don't have a clue why the changes were made, and probably never will. I can understand how the change in judging and the high percentage of awards can make you feel like the standard is lower, IF those are the only points you are considering.

But, as many people have posted, there were a lot more high quality pieces on the tables this year than usual. I felt that, after all the complaining last year, people really brought their "A" game this year. I'll tell you that I was highly motivated to bring my absolute best work.

Forget about the changes, forget about the complaining from last year. This show should be about the models on the table. Almost everyone I have talked to felt the judging (for the whole show, not just their own models) was spot on, but if you, yourself, looked closely at the models and strongly feel they didn't deserve any of the awards they received, then yeah, raise hell about it. However, if we start complaining about how many awards were given, regardless of the quality of work, then it seems like we taking the models out of being the main focus of the model contest.

That's my view in a nutshell, and more eloquently said than my attempt.

Just crunching the numbers; 573 entries, 483 awards total. That means that 90 entries didn't earn anything. 41 golds which is only 8.4%, 98 silvers which is only 20%, 185 bronzes which is 38%, and 136 certificates which is 28%. Looks like there were precious few golds awarded. And not really that many silvers. I don't see that they softened the judging at all.

From the quantity of very high quality work on the tables I think the standards were very high to receive a gold medal.

Guys..........I'm not complaining..........I'm just "old school" I guess. I'm a if it isn't broke don't fix it type of person!! LOL I have never said anyone that judged wasn't qualified. I questioned why those we KNOW for a fact were qualified were purposely omitted. Did they do something wrong other than donate their time for the last how ever many years giving seminars and judging? (politics maybe?) To me this was a slap in the face to them that's all. I don't know who judged this year so I can't really comment about their overall qualifications. I will say this.....I have been asked over the years why don't I judge and my answer is always the same. I haven't earned that right. Do I feel I know what it takes? YES I do. However I don't feel I've earned the right. I will say again...........when 81% get an award of some sort you aren't going to hear much questioning of the judging. I don't think that many people buckled down and brought their "A" game as suggested but that's my opinion. (I'm sure a few did for sure) As always there were many great kits in the contest and I commend ANYONE that entered at all. You are all doing what this hobby is about............MODELING!!! Congrats for that are certainly in order! My comments are simply about keeping the WF contest what it has always been in my opinion. THE BEST FIGURE/Sci-Fi modeling contest out there. I would rather see less awards given IF that meant keeping the quality up. Maybe I'm wrong about all of this. I have said over and over that a lot of this is speculation on my part. I'm not necessarily saying my views are correct or accurate.

bed172 wrote:Just crunching the numbers; 573 entries, 483 awards total. That means that 90 entries didn't earn anything. 41 golds which is only 8.4%, 98 silvers which is only 20%, 185 bronzes which is 38%, and 136 certificates which is 28%. Looks like there were precious few golds awarded. And not really that many silvers. I don't see that they softened the judging at all.

From the quantity of very high quality work on the tables I think the standards were very high to receive a gold medal.

That's right, Bob. This biggest increase in awards this year was in merits. There were about 70 given in 2013, and they didn't give any last year. That's almost double the number of merits from the last time they were given.

So, when I talk about people bringing their "A" game, I'm not necessarily talking about earning silver or gold, I'm talking about going from nothing to earning a merit, or maybe a bronze.

And that's what we hope for, right? That modelers will leave the show encouraged to try harder and move up to the next level? Isn't that why there are classes and demos, so people can learn, get fired up to try new things, and hopefully improve their work for next year? I'm 100% in favor of a high standard of excellence, but does that mean merits should be an unreachable goal?

Brent wrote:

bed172 wrote:Just crunching the numbers; 573 entries, 483 awards total. That means that 90 entries didn't earn anything. 41 golds which is only 8.4%, 98 silvers which is only 20%, 185 bronzes which is 38%, and 136 certificates which is 28%. Looks like there were precious few golds awarded. And not really that many silvers. I don't see that they softened the judging at all.

From the quantity of very high quality work on the tables I think the standards were very high to receive a gold medal.

That's right, Bob. This biggest increase in awards this year was in merits. There were about 70 given in 2013, and they didn't give any last year. That's almost double the number of merits from the last time they were given.

So, when I talk about people bringing their "A" game, I'm not necessarily talking about earning silver or gold, I'm talking about going from nothing to earning a merit, or maybe a bronze.

And that's what we hope for, right? That modelers will leave the show encouraged to try harder and move up to the next level? Isn't that why there are classes and demos, so people can learn, get fired up to try new things, and hopefully improve their work for next year? I'm 100% in favor of a high standard of excellence, but does that mean merits should be an unreachable goal?

Hear hear.

Woah, hold up. We were told not to award merits last year as that wonderfest was phasing out the merit award.

Alright, continue.

Nerv31 wrote:Woah, hold up. We were told not to award merits last year as that wonderfest was phasing out the merit award.

Alright, continue.

Yeah, I think most people are aware. I was just comparing this year to the last year they were given. Sorry, if I was unclear. Didn't mean to sound like the judges did anything wrong there.

Brent wrote:

bed172 wrote:Just crunching the numbers; 573 entries, 483 awards total. That means that 90 entries didn't earn anything. 41 golds which is only 8.4%, 98 silvers which is only 20%, 185 bronzes which is 38%, and 136 certificates which is 28%. Looks like there were precious few golds awarded. And not really that many silvers. I don't see that they softened the judging at all.

From the quantity of very high quality work on the tables I think the standards were very high to receive a gold medal.

That's right, Bob. This biggest increase in awards this year was in merits. There were about 70 given in 2013, and they didn't give any last year. That's almost double the number of merits from the last time they were given.

So, when I talk about people bringing their "A" game, I'm not necessarily talking about earning silver or gold, I'm talking about going from nothing to earning a merit, or maybe a bronze.

And that's what we hope for, right? That modelers will leave the show encouraged to try harder and move up to the next level? Isn't that why there are classes and demos, so people can learn, get fired up to try new things, and hopefully improve their work for next year? I'm 100% in favor of a high standard of excellence, but does that mean merits should be an unreachable goal?

Or........maybe..........just maybe........... the judging was softer? Even if it was just to give out merits it still wouldn't be right!

SJ

Or........maybe..........just maybe........... the judging was softer? Even if it was just to give out merits it still wouldn't be right!

SJ[/quote]

So how soft was the judging in 2014 when afm guys were judging and a star wars dio made up of unpainted out of the package action figures took a silver???? That could be considered soft judging....
or another dio with an unpainted dyecast car with 22 inch rims won.....????

shakey dave 187 wrote:Or........maybe..........just maybe........... the judging was softer? Even if it was just to give out merits it still wouldn't be right!

SJ

So how soft was the judging in 2014 when afm guys were judging and a star wars dio made up of unpainted out of the package action figures took a silver???? That could be considered soft judging....
or another dio with an unpainted dyecast car with 22 inch rims won.....????[/quote]

Yep.

Scott Johansen wrote:

Brent wrote:

bed172 wrote:Just crunching the numbers; 573 entries, 483 awards total. That means that 90 entries didn't earn anything. 41 golds which is only 8.4%, 98 silvers which is only 20%, 185 bronzes which is 38%, and 136 certificates which is 28%. Looks like there were precious few golds awarded. And not really that many silvers. I don't see that they softened the judging at all.

From the quantity of very high quality work on the tables I think the standards were very high to receive a gold medal.

That's right, Bob. This biggest increase in awards this year was in merits. There were about 70 given in 2013, and they didn't give any last year. That's almost double the number of merits from the last time they were given.

So, when I talk about people bringing their "A" game, I'm not necessarily talking about earning silver or gold, I'm talking about going from nothing to earning a merit, or maybe a bronze.

And that's what we hope for, right? That modelers will leave the show encouraged to try harder and move up to the next level? Isn't that why there are classes and demos, so people can learn, get fired up to try new things, and hopefully improve their work for next year? I'm 100% in favor of a high standard of excellence, but does that mean merits should be an unreachable goal?

Or........maybe..........just maybe........... the judging was softer? Even if it was just to give out merits it still wouldn't be right!

SJ

I think you're convinced that this is true and nobody here is going to sway you. Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion, of course. But if you're saying it's not a real model contest UNLESS the AFM guys judge, then I have to disagree. And despite the fact that you insist your position is a hypothetical one, it can't help but come across as an insult to those who won medals. I gather that you're friends with one or more of the AFM guys, and maybe you think this is sticking up for them, but (a) I'm sure they can defend themselves if they so choose, and (b) it's quite condescending to those who judged and those who won. The best part of this hobby, to me, is the bringing together of modellers of all skill levels so that we can all learn from each other. I sat in on Jim Capone's demo of flesh tones and learned something new. Same with the grey scale demo by Jeff Camp (I missed Rick's but have seen it subsequently on YT). Stalwarts of our hobby sharing what they've learned for everyone's benefit. I would rather focus on that and the positives then any perceived slights.

Congrats to all the winners! Hope you're inspired to Build More Models!

Brent wrote:

shakey dave 187 wrote:Or........maybe..........just maybe........... the judging was softer? Even if it was just to give out merits it still wouldn't be right!

SJ

So how soft was the judging in 2014 when afm guys were judging and a star wars dio made up of unpainted out of the package action figures took a silver???? That could be considered soft judging....
or another dio with an unpainted dyecast car with 22 inch rims won.....????

Yep.[/quote]

Gentlemen........you are missing the point COMPLETELY!!! First off Shakey Dave, you are a very talented builder and painter and also have some very creative ideas!! I was glad to see you get the most AMAZING figure this year!! The Wolfman dio was AWESOME!! So was the Dr. Frankenstein/Fritz dio!!! YOU have worked HARD and continue to bring your "A" game.

That being said can you tell me what AFM writer judged either of those pieces and gave them an award? I'm betting it wasn't an AFM writer. As stated earlier in the thread it wasn't just AFM writers that were judges. It was however AFM writers that were omitted from judging. The same AFM writers that for years gave seminars (spending their own money on materials), and judged the contest (when they could've been going out on Sat. night with friends they only see once a year). This is clearly a slap in the face to them. Now I will say it ONE MORE TIME......IF (that's right.......IF) the AFM writers were not asked to judge because they were "too tough" on the entries then I think that is a poor decision. That would clearly be "making the contest easier". Every rebuttal you guys have points to this!! Now because none of you are officially tied to WF I still won't say this did indeed happen. The original title of the thread was "What happened to the AFM guys judging the contest?" All I have done is offer a possible reason. I've said it's their show and they can do what they want. I've simply offered my opinion about this situation IF my deduction is correct.

SJ

You're wrong on a number of counts (it wasn't just the AFM guys who didn't judge this year, but also many others from past years, like myself; the 'AFM guys' awarded Dave his Most Amazing Model award, so yeah they did judge the kits at least for that award) but there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Go Build More Models!