Can someone break down what it takes to produce a vinyl kit?

[Todd P.]

I've had this fantasy for a while of producing vinyl model kits. Not today, not next month, but maybe in a year I could start something rolling. Maybe it'll never happen, but it certainly won't if I don't at least explore it a little.

So, I wonder if someone here could answer a few questions so that I can start spending some of my wasted web-surfing time looking up this kind of stuff.

1. How do you get these kits made? I won't have the resources to buy a bunch of production equipment myself, so I'd need to get someone else to do the molding and manufacturing in decent volume, along the lines of the original GEOmetric. Here's what might be a sticking point: I don't want to have it done in China. Just about anywhere else is fine. Would be awfully nice if I could find someplace in North or Central America.

2. Should I be aware of any limitations of sculpting vinyl figures? I know rubber resin molds are quite forgiving while steel styrene molds have strict limitations. What's the deal with vinyl?

3. What's the most important question I'm probably not considering?

[lsamuels]

Todd,
I don't have any answers to your questions, sorry. -)

Do you mind if I ask why you're specifically interested in vinyl?

Cheers!

Larry Samuels

[Todd P.]

I like vinyl kits and not many new ones are being made. Horizon and the original GEOmetric are two of my favorite kit producers; Horizon's been gone a few years and the modern GEO, while still terrific, doesn't make vinyl kits anymore.

Vinyl kits have tons of detail, they're usually easy to build (kits like Sideshow's Wrightson Frankenstein being an exception), they can/must be produced in greater numbers and they're cheaper.

The appeal of resin doesn't elude me, but in the end, I prefer vinyl. I may like styrene even more, but financing plastic kits is far beyond my means. Besides, there's plenty of great styrene kits coming out now.

[MONSTERS ON THE SHELF]

From what I understand, the cost of producing vinyl kits is staggering...
I understand that you prefer vinyl, but I think most folks do prefer resin myself included.
I'd just give it some serious consideration before dedicating to vinyl.
Either way, best of luck with your project and remember the most important thing.......have fun with it........J

[Todd P.]

Thanks, Joe. "Fun" is part of my motivation, and again, it's a long way off. As for expense, I do know it's expensive, but I don't know how much. At least two GK producers have recently offered vinyl kits; one still has them on his website, although that hasn't been updated in forever.

As for resin kits, I do like them, but the dust and noise required to build them are a big problem in my little house. The market for vinyl might be smaller, but lots of us include vinyl kits from Billiken, Horizon and GEOmetric in our "grail" lists. I figure that if they're good kits at a decent price, people will buy them.

All fantasy for now.

[darkestkarma]

From my understanding the molds used to produce vinyl are typically metal, and cost a LOT as they are able to produce thousands of castings with the exact same amount of material and details.

[needful1one]

Todd this is for you. First thing that needs to be done is for the sculpt to have all of it's undercuts filled or rounded. Nothing with sharp points will come out most of the time. Some fine parts I have seen done in some Japanese kits are very delicate and they are done one part by one part. Most molds are made for repetitous casting work.

OK so after that is done, you must make sure all the parts have the ends of the parts made with a bigger void ( flashing area) because this is the area where the part will be pulled from the mold. So the flashing has to be bigger then the end of the part to make sure it clears the opening.

Once that is done you must make a set of silicone molds of all the parts. Once those parts are done you must cast one resin copy to keep as a master. Then you must make a casting out of wax.
Once the wax casting is done, you have to clean all the mold lines off and fill in any undercuts or bubbles with wax.

Then the wax is sent to the mold maker. They take the wax and they lay it in a water tank..and this tank is used to electroplate the pieces. What happens is they put an electric current into the tank with the piece and particle of nicekl, copper and aluminum accumulate on the parts. Once that is done they take them out of the tanks and burn out the wax, leaving a mold with the parts in the center.

Then they spray the material ( vinyl into the mold) the mold is submerged into a liquid bath and the pieces are pulled out with thongs and then thorwn into fresh water. The vinyl has it's own memory. Meaning onc eit is spreayed into the original caviy of the mold and then pulled out it pops back into it's original shape as it was inside the mold.

The molds do not break down because they are done out of metal so the heat does not bother it...but the material sprayed in is very hot.

So I hope that answers your questions?? Oh and yes it cost a lot to make these molds so you have to make sure you can sell enough to cover your costs. The molds are expensive but the castings are alot less then resin. So it's 6 of these half a dozen of others.

[RCreations]

Robb, that was very educational, thanks! I've always wondered how they make vinyl kits.

[chasd25]

I have heard of using metal filled epoxy molds instead of the standard metal molds. Haven't tried it myself, but have given it some thought.......

Mold life isn't as long though....

[Todd P.]

THANKS, Robb! Extremely helpful info that makes this a "print it out and save it" thread for me.

Can you tell me specifically who you worked with to do this?

[buzzconroy]

I started out in the garage kit world building vinyl in 89-90.My first kit was Billiken Batman, and Frankenstein, the details blew me away.

Randy

[PROFESSOR JARROD]

THANKS, Robb! Extremely helpful info that makes this a "print it out and save it" thread for me.

Can you tell me specifically who you worked with to do this?

Hi Tod,

I read Rob's description about the process involved in producing vinyl kits. I also thought it was very educational. He did a great job of describing the process involved.
I don't know what it cost to produce metal molds these days, but based on what Rob said, it sounds like they may use different methods to make the molds today than they did when AURORA first started producing kits. I read an article about AURORA'S release of the 1961 Frankenstein kit. "Frankenstein" was AURORA'S first monster model kit released. It cost AURORA $75,000 to have the mold made in 1961, and the mold produced roughly 4000 kits per day and operated 24 Hrs. a day. The demand for the kit was so high that AURORA had a second mold made to keep up with the demand for the kit. Both molds produced kits 24 Hrs. a day. So the total cost of both molds came to $125.000, and there were approximately 8,000 kits produced per day.

"Just a little information I thought you might be interested in concerning the cost of producing a metal mold."

Rick

[tay666]

. Here's what might be a sticking point: I don't want to have it done in China. Just about anywhere else is fine. Would be awfully nice if I could find someplace in North or Central America.

I don't know if North America is feasable.
From my understanding EPA regs won't allow for production here in the US. And I doubt Canada would be much more lenient.
Now, Central America would be a whole nother ball O wax.

[needful1one]

Hey Guys I didn't think there was that many of you interested in this.Your very wlecome.
I have done 2 vinyl projects. It was fun but very labor intensive. As for the molds...originally back in the day I was told they were all done as copper molds. But as the price of precious metals has gone up so has the price of copper molds. So what they do know is they start with the first electroplating in copper, then the second coat will be another metal,..the third coat will be a cheaper metal. So the best metal will be the metal closest to the kit and will give the best results. But the economics of the metal cost will be cut down.

[chasd25]

THANKS, Robb! Extremely helpful info that makes this a "print it out and save it" thread for me.

Can you tell me specifically who you worked with to do this?

Hi Tod,

I read Rob's description about the process involved in producing vinyl kits. I also thought it was very educational. He did a great job of describing the process involved.
I don't know what it cost to produce metal molds these days, but based on what Rob said, it sounds like they may use different methods to make the molds today than they did when AURORA first started producing kits. I read an article about AURORA'S release of the 1961 Frankenstein kit. "Frankenstein" was AURORA'S first monster model kit released. It cost AURORA $75,000 to have the mold made in 1961, and the mold produced roughly 4000 kits per day and operated 24 Hrs. a day. The demand for the kit was so high that AURORA had a second mold made to keep up with the demand for the kit. Both molds produced kits 24 Hrs. a day. So the total cost of both molds came to $125.000, and there were approximately 8,000 kits produced per day.

"Just a little information I thought you might be interested in concerning the cost of producing a metal mold."

Rick

Rick, aurora used metal molds for injection molding styrene. Very diffrent process than the metal molds used to produce vinyl kits. Also much more expensive.

[chasd25]

There's also a couple different vinyl methods. As I understand it, horizon, geometric used a slush casting process, while screamin used a rotational vinyl molding technique.

[MONSTERS ON THE SHELF]

Thanks, Joe. "Fun" is part of my motivation, and again, it's a long way off. As for expense, I do know it's expensive, but I don't know how much. At least two GK producers have recently offered vinyl kits; one still has them on his website, although that hasn't been updated in forever.

As for resin kits, I do like them, but the dust and noise required to build them are a big problem in my little house. The market for vinyl might be smaller, but lots of us include vinyl kits from Billiken, Horizon and GEOmetric in our "grail" lists. I figure that if they're good kits at a decent price, people will buy them.

All fantasy for now.

I also started in this hobby by building vinyl kits. My very first kits were from Billiken and included Cyclops, She Creature, Saucer Man, Creature f/t/b Lagoon, and a few others. Those kits grabbed me hook, line and sinker.. That was back in the early 90's and once I received those kits, I couldn't believe my eyes. I had never seen anything with such detail. My first resin kit wasn't until about 1999, and it was just the complete other side of the coin. I worked on it several hours a day and it took about two weeks just to clean it up.. But once it was done I realized just how much fun I had and quickly purchased another resin kit. Today it's pretty much simply all resin for me. However, if a nice vinyl kit came along of characters such as Universal or Hammer monsters I probably wouldn't be able to pass it up.
As for all the info that was posted from Robb (needful1one), well you can take that to the bank cause if anyone knows his stuff it's Robb. One of the most experienced and best guys in the hobby, and never hesitates to help if he can..
This can be a tough little business and it's easy to get in over your head if not careful. So as they say in wood shop, "think three times, measure twice, cut once"...
And once again best of luck with your project, keep having fun and make sure to keep us posted on any up-dates....... ...............Joe

[needful1one]

There's also a couple different vinyl methods. As I understand it, horizon, geometric used a slush casting process, while screamin used a rotational vinyl molding technique.

Absolutely Charlie, you are correct. I forgot to say that before. The Japanese Co. also do rotational casting as if you look on the insde you will see a self leveling finish.

[nmeyers]

Thanks for the great info Robb!

I purchased the amazing vinyl 1:1 scale Spiderhead kit from you and always wondered how that was done!

[george stephenson]

Sorry if this comes as a duplicate but I tried to respond earlier and the message appears to have been lost.

I did vinyl for GEOmetrric for 8 years and can tell you all you want to know about slush-casting vinyl kits. GEO produced most of our kits right here in Minnesota. It can be done in the U.S. We had our equipment and our vinyl custom made right here in Minnesota. The process Robb described is totally different than slush molding.

The only thing we couldn't get here in Minnesota was the industrial salt we used to cook the stuff. We got that from a company in Michigan. Email me at goblackheart@comcast.net and I'll get you more info.

It can be done but it is hard work. I have biceps and carpal tunnel to prove it.

GeoS